[Minutes, Quorum of Twelve] 1847 Nov[embe]r. 16. 12 at noon Adjourned [for a] meeting in the Council House.
Present[:] Pres[iden]ts. [Brigham] Young, [Heber C.] Kimball, [Orson] Pratt, [Willard]
Richards, [Wilford] Woodruff, [George A.] Smith, [Amasa] Lyman, & [Ezra T.] Benson, W[illiam]
W Phelps, & T[homas] Bullock.
H. C. Kimball motioned that we opened the council with prayer-O Pratt seconded. Carried.
H C K opened with prayer.
O. Pratt motioned that bro. Young preside-W W.[:] I second that motion-I dont know what he has done that he sho[ul]d. not preside.
B. Young[: N]either do I-but we are in an unprecedented state-[T]he state of the conversat[io]n. yesterday commenced by O.P. & appears to be like an investigation on my head-
O. Pratt-It rose by way of motion.
B. Young[:] Do you want any other man to preside beside myself[?]
All-I dont-
G. A. S.[:] I wo[ul]d. rat[he]r. have a Council of Chast[isement]. than a Council of law Suit-
W. R.[:] I have not time to speak.
B. Y.[:] There is not a man that I have goaded so much as Dr R?
W R[:] That is because I love you the more-I will ask the Pres[iden]t., did I ever kick at your whipping?
B. Y.[:] No, never.
W. R.[:] That is why I have the advantage.
B. Y.[:] The subject before us-Have I been out of the way or does this Council want to dictate my conversation[?]-[S]ome alluded to Joseph-[but] that is nothing to me-[T]he question is am I biassed by men or women, or is my conduct right or wrong[?]-I want this council to say whether I abuse my bre[thre]n-or whe[the]r. are they satisfied-[H]ere is a Quorum of the Twelve.
[L]et them dictate my course.
E. T. Benson[:] I motion we drop the subject & proceed to business-
G. A. Smith[:] I second it-B Y.[:] It is open for discussion.
W W Phelps-[W]hen bro Joseph acted as a Pres[iden]t. & dictated to the 12-he was Independent & wo[ul]d. not have a vote on what he sho[ul]d. do-& in that way Pres[iden]t. Young sho[ul]d. act-perfectly untrammeled-[I]f you set bounds we are gone-[T]he more we rub the chain the better polished we are-[W]e are not perfect & shall not be yet-even in the case of the Pioneers there are scenes that will try any one. I sho[ul]d. uphold the authority in some manner-& if I got out of the way I wo[ul]d. draw in-God has no better system to correct us & that is the reason why he has given us this system.
E T Benson spoke.
B. Young[:] I mean good shall come from this, & so does the Lord-[B]r Orson stated yesterday there is no difference bet[wee]n. me & the 12 only on acc[oun]t of my age-[I]f that s the case I will take back my age & put some one else to preside. [M]y course has been, since Spring [of] 1840 (in England) [that] this Quo[rum] has never had a difficulty from that time to this-[N]ow I want to see some man who has the brain, & I am willing some of the rest of the brethren sho[ul]d. try. Are you willing that this shall be the understanding-& that there is no other preeminance than 16 days of age[?]-
H C K[:] Since the Organizat[io]n. of this Quo[rum]-Joseph said in Prison-[S]ince then there has been a rev[elatio]n from the Lord appointing bro Brigham as Pres[ide]n[t].
O. Pratt[: I]t is true we have had no difficulty in this Quo[rum]. since we went to England-I dont consider this a difficulty-but I do say that every member has a right to express his sentiments-& if I am incorrect I stand ready to be corrected. by the autho[rit]y of the Ch[urch]-
[through] the Twelve-[T]here is no authority higher in decision than 7 of the 12-[T]he highest decision is the united authorities of the Ch[urch]-[B]ut if /in/ my views I am wrong & am willing to be corrected-I ought to have the confidence of the Quo[rum]. [I]f I come out bef[ore]. the Ch[urch]. & proclaimed in public ag[ain]st. any member of the Quo[rum]. I sho[ul]d. be doing wrong-We all hold equal offices in this Quo[rum]. [T]here is no diff[erence]. in the Quo[rum]. from the Pres[iden]t. to the last admitted-[B]ut of necessity there must be one to regulate them-I dont think the decision of Pres[iden]t. Young is equal to the decision of 7 of this Quo[rum]. [I]f one man decides a question & if the man has not a right to appeal to this Quo[rum]. I sho[ul]d. appeal to the Quo[rum]. for them to decide which is correct. I dont know any rev[elatio]n. which requires me to give implicit confidence to every decision that one man might give. [T]hey have a Pres[iden]t. in the Senate-but his decision does not overrule the Senate-[T]hat body have a right to appeal to the Senate-that is all I claim-I have submitted in every decision to Pres[iden]t. Young & this is the 1st. time I have differed from him-I have appealed to this Quo[rum].
In regard to age-[T]he rev[elatio]ns, say that age has something to do-[T]he oldest man of the 1st 12-& it is Pres[iden]t. Youngs place because he is the oldest-& he has a right to chastise us in this Quo[rum]-[B]ut I do not think we ought to be bound to have /our/ names brot. bef[ore] the public for chastisement-[I]f a member of this Quo[rum] does wrong openly-why sho[ul]d. one man have the right to bring his name bef[ore]. the public-without first consulting the Quo[rum?] I consider this Quo[rum as].-the President of the Church-& this Quo[rum] has a right to regulate the Pres[iden]t. as much as to regulate me or any other member-[T]here is no subject but this Quo[rum] has a right to decide, & I consider it is superior on acc[oun]t. of being a majority-than the decision of the President.
B. Young[: T]hen if this Quo[rum]. who will not decide-why I shall do as I have a mind to.
[I]t is right for us to have a social chat & get things right-I have not tried any one of the Quo[rum] since I have been a Pres[iden]t: well let this be a Social chit chat, [and] an error let it be on the minutes so. I wo[ul]d. sit a week & hear all speak bef[ore]: I spoke-I made a statement yesterday & was very broad-[about] the nature of the calling of a man in the Priesthood, [Y]ou may suppose [of] all the cases on record-& even where they cast lots for Kings-he was King was not he?-& if the lot is in me & I have the case! & if 14 days difference is all-my case is longest-[B]ut like Joseph I will not be trammelled-I wo[ul]d. rat[her]. have to be shot in Carthage Jail than to be under the necessity of having to run to my bre[thre]n before I can speak bef[ore]: the public-[M]ust man be eternally grumbling because my stick is the longest[?]-[H]ow much fault have I found with T B, [Thomas] Marsh, Jos[ep]h. Smith, or S[idney]. Rigdon[?]-I never opened my mouth when they lammed it on to me-[I]f my lot is to preside over the Ch[urch]-must I eternally be asking when shall I speak[?]-[I]f this body is the head of the Ch[urch]. & I am the head of the Quo[rum]-I am the mouth piece & you are the belly-[N]ow tell the aggression where I failed-I chastised bro.
Parley-I asked the Quo[rum] if I had a right to chastise & I co[ul]d. not get a man to squeak-but I knew it & I told them-before we left here-Parley & J[ohn]. Taylor ought to have taken a Wagon & a Stove & gone with us-but they wo[ul]d. not-[B]ut when we were gone they stuck up their nib-& you may take the privilege & lam it on to me as much as you please-but if you do wrong I will straiten you-/[A]ny of/ you may take the responsibility if you please-I said in this room the other day that I wo[ul]d. pledge that hand (striking the table) that P. P. had committed adultery-[I]t was shewn to me in the valley-they committed an insult on the Holy Priesthood-& I say again I will chastise you when you /I/ please, & how I please, & say what I please-[P]ut some one else in my room-& I will do as Orson Pratt has done, teach my children, & suck my thumbs-& let you do all your load yourself-[B]ro. Orson never felt the burden of the Pres[iden]t:-he had never had any care on his mind-[E]very horse might have been stolen every night for all the care of Orson Pratt-
[N]ow to the subject.
O. P. came to this place & insulted me, & my Quorum, & the Priesthood-& insulted the Almighty-I told it right out in bro Spencer s Co.-it was written before me. I told the Saints & by the Pres[iden]t.-the very roads on the Prairie show how they were led-[D]id P Pratt le[a]d tha
t body[?]-No-the Devil led it-I shall never have any rest until I get in that Valley & P. P. & J T bow down & confess that they are not B. Y. [T]hey are devoid of the auth[orit]y.-[W]hen they ret[urne]d. from England they got the Big Head & said I am the Twelve-[D]id I ever say so[?]-
[N]o never-[W]hy don t some of you get up & tell me the nature of my office[?]-[B]ro Orson is as ignorant of it as he was 10 y[ea]rs ago. I wonder if I am not hurt-yes I am-I have scolded bro.
Benson, he had a good team & was anxious to get home, but all in good nature. [W]as it a private concern with P P & J. T[?]-[N]o, it concerns the entire gathering-[B]ro. Amasa was careless about hunting camping places, [and] he manifested a careless Sp[irit]: If I had been able I wo[ul]d. do it all the time-I had that care that no o[the]r. man bore-[T]hat is the only time I ever spoke of him-What is bro Taylor s course[?]-I know it. I [will] tell you a few points-[H]e tried to gull every Sov[ereign]. & Shil]ling] in England-& let the rest of the 12 come home naked-[J]ust as quick as he was in the Quo[rum]-[H]e said you are my niggers & you shall black my boots & he [will] ride you all the time-(several-thats a fact). [H]e will throw burdens on this Ch[urch] & I will tell of it when I please-I feel Independent, & if you dont like it just try titles-[W]hen I make decisions, the Sp[irit] tells me to do so,-& if you dont like it-well, just wrestle for it & see who is right-[Y]et I feel my nothingness as much as any of you & if the Lord dont lead us-we shall go wrong-we should all go to the Devil-What does O. P. do[?]-[W]hy sit in his house all the time-[N]o man runs to him for a yoke of oxen, or any thing-but you see me running all the time-
If I have to be mouth Piece-I have to be so in councilling, in dictating, just tie me in one instance & I tell you ano[the]r. instance-[J]ust tie me up, I am ready-& I will thro the responsibility upon you-& tie you up by the uplifted hands to Almighty God, & I will have it recorded with a Diamond & hide it up until the day it is required-[B]ut you are not going to run a red hot iron into my side without my heating the other end for you-I know my standing before God & bef[ore] the p[eo]pl[e]-[T]hen you will feel & know things that you never knew before-[B]ut as the lot is mine-dont quarrel with it-[I]f it is a man s lot to draw [$]1[,]000[,]000 of money & all the rest get nothing-dont sa[y] you have as much money as I have-but I have a carriage & can ride over you- but I will be untrammelled too-[T]he question is I want the bre[thre]n to decide-[B]ut I sho[ul]d. have told Parley, bro. P. you have done wrong & you have insulted me as well as bro Brigham-[I]f you tie me up you will all just go down into darkness-[I]f the same feeling was allowed to take place in the Salt Basin they might go & remove that city 50 miles somewhere else-It will never do.
Who[ever] does wrong I will put it to them-[T]hey will have to bow & confess that they have done wrong. Brigham never did so-[T]here never has been a decision but it has been decided by the Quorum-
If you organize this Ch[urch]. you will all run against a Snag & I shall have to help you out too-I am going to go it, the Lord being my helper, but without the Lord I am nothing-I will be free. [B]ut if you tie me up you will se[e] the whipple trees & chains fly-[Y]ou are free-& if you I see you going to the Devil I will head you & prevent you-I carry the oracles when I have a Quorum round me-but I will make the same decision now as I did then-Gent[leme]n. I will chastise you when I please & how I please & now help yourselves-if the Pres[iden]t. is tied up Bro. Richards & one or two others decided I had the right to chastise-
O. Pratt[:] I did express my mind then, & several times since-that Parley had done wrong.-
I expressed my mind that Parley had done decidedly wrong in uprooting the Councils of this Ch[urch]. I have suffered too much from P. P. [T]his Quo[rum]. know[s] that I was abused by him & it is not bec[oming of]. P.s conduct that I approbate this subject-[T]here is not one man except Pres[iden]t. Young-that [had] 1/10th the trouble on their mind as I had-& when I got into the Valley I had not the privilege of going into the mountains to cut trees for a house, on acc[oun]t. of having to measure different places-I do consider there is no man except the Pres[iden]t. who had the labor to go thro[ugh] as I had. [T]he duties of that kind are far more laborious than any of a physical nature-I have scarce time to teach my children any thing-I have never sponged on bro Young for a living-but I can show you I have assisted /him/ more than he has me-I have not public funds to asist with-but how can I use Church funds for the int[erest]. of the Ch[urch]. when they are not in my hands[?]-[L]ook at the 1000s of dollars that are put in his hands-[W]e committed 2000$ into his hands the day bef[ore]: we started-& we wanted a debt to the Soldiers paid. I consider this Quo[rum] has the disposal of the Ch[urch] funds & to pay such debts as they may say. I dont know that I hav[e] been sponging a living out of bro Young-for I wo[ul]d. sooner work my fingers off than put a debt on his Shoulder-If I am permitted to draw tithing I dont consider it comes out of bro. Young-[S]uppose this Quo[rum]. sho[ul]d. decide to have some of the means that are paid into Bishop Whitney-wo[ul]d. that be taking it from bro Young[?]-I say Certainly no-I did once make use of some Church Harness-but I turned over the Horses, Harness & Pistols-[and] I rendered an account of it-[T]he Great God bef[ore] whom I speak knows I have been burdened & many a night have I been sleepless thinking of the things of the Ch[urch]-[A] man who has not the means cannot dispense them for the benefit of the Ch[urch]-I have confidence in my bre[thre]n of the Ch[urch]-in this Quo[rum]-[I]f I or bro. Amasa, or bro George asked any question about the Guard-we have been snubbed & repulsed by the Officers-& I speak my mind plainly-I will not smother my feeling from this time & for henceforth so help me the great Jehovah.
I will take my chastisements in this Quorum & if bro. Young will mash me down bef[ore]. the public-I will submit to it in peace in silence if my bre[thre]n of the Council will submit-& if our actions do not manifest that we have not an interest in the Ch[urch]. I dont know what will.
B. Young[: T]hat is right, /continue to/ express your feelings & you will see it, one of these years-
You and all of the bre[thre]n have done well-your labors this season have been first rate-I want you to tell me what Church funds I ever used that I am not indisputably held for-[A]s to the Ferry I have had a few dollars & that is all-[B]ro: Orson you have the privilege of paying a few of the Church debts-[T]hat money that you speak of, it was voted into my hands-I paid several hundred dollars into the Church funds-[Y]ou voted me a Carriage & I am going to send for it-I bought 5000 Bush of Corn last winter & every dollar I handed every /out/ to the poor-
H C. Kimball[:] I stand accountable for 1.500-& we have to be harpooned for it-
B. Young[:] When we were fitting out those rooms-we rec[eive]d. a beautiful Franklin Stove. I told the Tr[ust]ees to put that in No. 1-at that very time John Taylor promised Bunnel to pay for a carriage in cash & he lied-[H]e took that very Franklin Stove & put it in his carpeted parlor-& I am righteously angry-I paid [$]1.00 to fit up those upper rooms-& John Taylor modestly stole it.-[I]t is thieving & stealing the Lord s property-[W]e could get nothing out of J. Taylor to help to fit up those rooms-John Taylor ag[ai]n.-[W]hen O. Hyde got some money from an old man who wanted [$]4000 for his Ship-O. H. promised the old man he should sell his Ship for 4700 L-[T]he old man went into the Exchange & got 4900 L for his Ship-[T]he old man Dod over 700 L & 200 L more for his bargain-Taylor & Pratt got hold over the money & wo[ul]d. not let Hyde have a dollar-O Hyde fastened up L500 & sealed it up in Canvas-& he wanted them to swear not to break that p[ar]cel until they got to the council-[T]hey would not-& they broke open that very
parcel-when their pockets were lined with money-& here they would not give my wife a single dollar but gave her an order on the Ferry-upon my own individual property-[I]ts an insult-
I wish they were here, I am righteously angry. I would kick their arses-I have to father all those debts-I would drop dollars with the Church this very day-
If any of you get the Big Head & think of trampling upon this Quo[rum]. you will find me behind & before you-If you do a thing that ought not to be known-I shall know it-yet it may be as secret as the Grave with me-[T]here are things that are treasured in my bosom that I am as secret as the Grave-Brethren, If I dont do right tell me who there is that does right-I never saw a day that if I was wrong I could drop upon my knees & say Brethren will you forgive me & any man who wants to stand where I am he must be a Lion-& he would be trammeled-& if he does wrong God will remove him out of the way. I love my brethren so much that I want to be with them all the time [illegible] glad for every man to have a good living-[T]here are lots of men that are deserving of a good living & the time will soon be that we shall not be trammeled with earthly things-but we shall have every thing we want-every thing good to eat, drink & wear-cariages, [blank] & every thing we want-Gold would be a ruination to us-
H.C. Kimball[:] I feel that this is a glorious meeting. I knew it would result in good-this is the best meeting we have had since we left the Valley-[I]n regard to Taylor & Parley-the things that bro Hyde has said is so much worse as darkness is to light-& bro Brigham took & put it in his pocket to hide it up-[B]ro Parley & Taylor has treated me as if I was not a man of sense-[T]hey have come to the Quorum & [I] importuned them that I sho[ul]d. not preach because I am so simple-Taylor in Liverpool has tried to fiddle over my discourses-[I]f I did make a slip-bro Brigham wo[ul]d. jump up & smooth it up & save me-[W]e are organized for time & thro all Eternities. I want we sho[ul]d. all be hot, & take the old sledge & weld us together. [B]r Taylor was going to take a Team right out of my hands & they were obliged to come before the Hi[gh] Council to save it-& he abused bro Ellis M. Sanders because he wanted to get a part of what was owing to him, & bro Taylor abused him for it-I dont believe that such men will prosper-I told br Parley if you go with us you will never be sorry for it, but if you dont you will always be sorry for it-& I tell you they will lose more ground than they ever gained-
B. Young[:] Joseph s instructions were if one of the 12 were to go & do wrong-just go & get him home & smother it up-[B]ut I talk to them because I want them to live-[I]t is not because I want bro Parley & Taylor to die-but to live-& the only way to save those men is to talk as I do-
[B]ut If I were to say all they have done is right they wo[ul]d. be our enemies & apostates in 5 y[ea]rs, if not in 3. I believe I am able to classify what is right & what is wrong-[I]f two persons come bef[ore] a Council to blaze their faults abroad I say hush it up-
H.C. Kimball[:] I motion we adjourn.
B. Young[:] I motion that this Counsel shall dictate what I shall say & do.
H C. K.[:] "I motion that you be dictated by the Holy Ghost & speak as you are led to-"
O. P. &. W.. W.[:] I second it-
G. A. Smith[:] I believe every man will go & pray with a better Spirit, than if he had smothered his feelings.
B. Young. It is the right of one man to chastise this Church & if I have a right-is not my lot higher than any one[?]-[I]f a lot falls on a man to be King-is he not King? I just will be perfectly untrammelled-
H C K-If we tie the Pres[iden]t. hands, we tie our own.
O. P.[:] I consider that the regulating power lies in this Quorum.
W. R.[:] I ask a Question. Is our God trammeled[?]
B. Y.[:] He is trammeled by his Superior above him-
O. P.[:] I consider the decision of 7 men as superior to the Pres[iden]t.
B. Y.[:] You cant speak the time or thing that I ever decided without having a Quorum with me. Do you, O. P., hold the Sealing Keys of the Priesthood?
O. P.[:] Bro: Young has!-[Y]et this Quo[rum] has to sit on judgment on every revelation-
[I]f we get a rev[elatio]n.-the Quo[rum] has to say whether it is right or wrong.
B. Y.[:] I bel[ieve]. when the Pres[iden]t., if he was absolutely wrong, God wo[ul]d. disown him & the Church wo[ul]d. disown him too-[H]as 11 men the right to say-If I receive the Will & mind of the Lord-that it is wrong[?]-
O. P.[:] I say that the decision of 7 men wo[ul]d. be right-[T]hey wo[ul]d. not decide that a thing is a rev[elatio]n. if it is not a rev[elatio]n.
W. R.[:] The Council have now got to the text-[W]e have the U.S. /republican Govt./ for a text-but we are a "Theo Democracy"-the power of God untrammelled-
B. Y.[:] There is not a set of men on the Earth who /can/ say that a rev[elatio]n. from the Lord is wrong-I am God s freeman-
H C K-When a man speaks by the H[oly] G[host]. I want to know it by the same Sp[irit].
B. Y.[:] Why dont you vote[?] Am I right or wrong[?]-
H C K[:] I say you are right.
W R.[:] & so say I. B. Y.[:] I am the Pres[iden]t. of the 12-[and] they are the head of the people. I am mouth-I will say as I please & do as I please &-if I am right all lift up the right hand. up-Kimball, Richards, Smith, Woodruff, Benson, Lyman, Phelps, & Bullock.
B. Y.[:] Those who say Orson is right lift up the right hand-
Orson held a hand up. Brigham[:] That is 9 to 1-
B. Young[:] I mean to improve by my tongue & guard it more-but I mean to improve-
[W]hen I feel /any/ thing by the Sp[irit] of the Almighty-there is no flinch here-
O. Pratt[:] I have unburdened my mind-I feel free in my mind-I state I consider br Young to be the best calculated to stand at the head of the Ch[urch]. & I am perfectly submissive & receive all chastisements either private or public-& when I am wrong I want you to right me-
B Young[:] A man knows when he does wrong-I do mean that my tongue shall not offend my brethren-I shall & do want to grow with you-
E. T. Benson[: I]n the mountains br. B[righam]. [did] give me a back handed kick & that comes the hardest-[T]he blow hit me right on the top of my head & went thro to my toes-[I]t came unexpected-I snivelled, & felt bad-I felt at the same time I co[ul]d. carry br. B[righam]. on my Shoulders & carry him-[W]hen br B[righam]. whips br O[rson]. let us take it, & I prophecy it that when br O[rson]. preaches on the stand-he will preach with more power-I am glad for good has come out of it-
O Pratt[:] I motion that when those min[utes]: are corrected that they be read-& if not to be preserved-to burn them.
B. Y.[: L]et bro Thomas keep them by themselves-& sometime we will look them over.-
I feel towards the 12 [the] same as I do to my pet young ones, that I co[ul]d. put them in my pockets [the] same as my Wives & Children-I mean to act according to the H[oly]. G[host]. I want to put you in my pockets so that when I want to talk with you-I put my hand in my pocket, take you out, & talk with you.
H. C. K.[:] This will bring a reformation & run right thro the Church, & every man will feel it-
B. Y.[:] When things are done wrong publicly in the K[ingdom] of God-I have a right to deal with them publicly-I was right when I spoke of Parley & Taylor-
O. P.[:] I wish to know if the Pres. it will be the privilege for every man to speak plainly & freely-
B. Y.[:] I say for heaven s sake let out what is in you-[I]f it is wrong we may correct you & if right rub it up-Joseph once gave it to me on account of a slip of the tongue-[D]uring the administration of the Sacrament-for saying "command" instead of entreat-Let it out, if it is wrong or right-
I say let Bishop Whitney preside over the Hi[gh] Priests pro tem-
G. A. S.[:] I motion that this Council dismiss-H C K second[ed].
B. Y.[: B]re[thre]n you are dismiss[ed]. 3" PM.
[source: Minutes, Quorum of Twelve]
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